Curse

JR · Jan 29, 2008, 10:53 PM // 22:53

The problem with these classes is simple: They are fundamentally and completely flawed for GvG. The basic design of their capabilities is something that would never see play in any serious environment. It is the simple and brutal truth that they just plain old fashioned style suck. So why have they seen play at all?

Ritualists first saw play as a stalling class. Their biggest flaw, the one which makes them useless in GvG, is their massive reliance on spirits. Needless to say taking spirits in an environment where you need to remain mobile is usually a pretty dumb idea. This was less of an issue when you could use them to turtle in your base and then push out at VoD with all of your NPCs, using the strength of the spirits to defend them easily while they destroyed the other team.

Currently they are in the same state. People take them purely for Ancestors Rage and Splinter to farm NPCs. Again, they are not much more than a VoD play with skills to make them slightly more than mediocre along the way.

Assassins have been carried entirely by shadow stepping and the ability to kill things quickly, which makes them ideal for ganking bases. Their weak armor limits them purely to that, by making them terrible melee in any larger conflict. They are a one dimensional class that has been balanced into and out of use by nerfs and buffs to shadow stepping and combos, and that will continue to be the case.

In every case it has been taking advantage of game mechanics with the use of a few overpowered abilities. Then those are abilities are complained about enough, and are nerfed. The next step in this retarded circle jerk is Izzy feeling guilty that the class is gathering dust in the basement, and buffs something else untill people find another way to abuse them.

This is a very unhealthy condition for the game to be in, and is perpetually bringing new problems to the table that simply make the game less fun for those involved in GvG. Making a game less fun is somewhat... unintuitive.

The toss up is a classic case of faster short term gain versus slower long term gain. Take away the old imbalanced combinations and you satisfy the complainers, then replacing those with new imbalanced combinations is the only easy way to put that class back into play.

The alterantive is a longer and more work intensive solution, that also has the potential to be quite damaging in the short term: Class overhauls. It would however open the path to making them viable and well balanced classes for high level PvP with the right guidance and feedback processes.

Right now they are nothing but a spear in the side of serious PvP, with no hope of permanent removal. They will continually be forced into and out of the metagame by ridiculous skill balances, simply to try and justify their existance. The sad fact is that most of the people it effects would wish they were simply left out.

It also appears that by the time of the Nightfall campaign that Anet had realized their mistake. The Paragon and Dervish are classes that could mostly be saved by some deft tweaks to the class. At least they certainly aren't as severly problematic as the Factions debacle.

TLDR: The Assassin and Ritualist are classes that are going to continually cause grief in serious PvP, regardless of regular skill balancing. The classes as a whole are in dire need an overhaul.

erk · Jan 29, 2008, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Most Ritualists in GvG don't run any spirits, they are in most balanced teams in the current meta and they are extremely useful, they don't just stand there with splinter and ancestors at VoD, they are usually the runner, defending against a split, or using item spells as party heals and weapon spells like Warding and Remedy. Check your facts before you jump to conclusions like that.

JR · Jan 29, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Most Ritualists in GvG don't run any spirits, they are in most balanced teams in the current meta and they are extremely useful, they don't just stand there with splinter and ancestors at VoD, they are usually the runner, defending against a split, or using item spells as party heals and weapon spells like Warding and Remedy. Check your facts before you jump to conclusions like that.

I'm fairly sure if you read my post properly that you wont see anything to the contrary. I said Ritualists USED to run spirits, which they did. I said the class is largely BASED AROUND spirits, which it is.

People run Ritualists now for Splinter and Ancestors, and pad the template out with things that make them fairly usefull for other purposes: Being a semi competent split character and flag running.

lacasner · Jan 29, 2008, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Gayagons should be added to this list (that is, in just much depth as in ritualists)

Winstar · Jan 29, 2008, 11:26 PM // 23:26

It seems to me like the underlying idea behind assassins was reasonable. A class which while fragile could use movement to its advantage. The autokill function seems a bad idea though it wasn't as bad pre-nightfall. There should be some way to make this balanced through weakening their auto kill ability more and maintaining their movement advantage. Maybe emphasize movement and snaring with the ability to pose a threat to NPCs rather than boomlolyou'redead. Whatever it is there has to be some advantage to playing the class, something that would make you think it would be in your best interest to take this over a different split template in certain cases.

The Rit on the other hand seems like a class without a real identity from the start. Through various nerfs and buffs they become a kind of melee buff/support heal class which eventually became the rit runners we have now which of course might exist as a playable class only so long as splinter and ancestors remain as important as they are.

dies like fish · Jan 29, 2008, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by lacasner

Gayagons should be added to this list

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

It also appears that by the time of the Nightfall campaign that Anet had realized their mistake. The Paragon and Dervish are classes that could mostly be saved by some deft tweaks to the class. At least they certainly aren't as severly problematic as the Factions debacle.

He mentioned Paragons in the post.

Paragons are much different than Ritualists and Assassins. They do not rely on broken game mechanics to be good. Paragons add pressure and support to builds. Assassins provide spike ability and broken shadow-stepping. Ritualists just add Splinter Weapon and Ancestor's Rage.

Killed u man · Jan 30, 2008, 12:11 AM // 00:11

As much as I agree with you, JR, we BOTH know Anet won't change anything about it...

There have been thousands of complaints about sins/rits/paragons/dervishes being completely overpowered/useless in PvP.

Imo, what I think the problem was since the beginning is the fact that Anet first made the game (Factions/NF) and then in the end (Prolly the last month of development) threw in an insanely overpowered profession (Sins/Rits in Faction release, with spirit stacking etc) so people were forced to buy the new game. Now we, the "hardcore" PvP community (I concider playing 1-2 hours of High-End PvP hardcore), have to pay for the fact that Anet made some rushed descissions...

Anet knows PvP is dying, RA still is the "wait-for-a-monk"-competition, TA is left totally abandonned, HA is dead (3 Viable builds, Huray), GvG recently changed from 1 build in intire top 100 to now 2 builds... Both of which require very little player skill to play, compared to the bars people ran 1-2 years ago, and relies on abusing 5 or 6 broken skills, just like you said...

I wish for nothing more of a COMPLETE review of assassins, ritualist, paragons and dervishes, AND change alot of key-factors in all GvG-maps. This way, GW will actually feel "fresh" again, because a simple skill balance won't do much anymore...

But then again, it's not like we pay a monthly subscription to "motivate" Anet, so NO, it won't happen :'(

Dodo The Extinct · Jan 30, 2008, 12:15 AM // 00:15

/signed

12chars

Snow Bunny · Jan 30, 2008, 12:20 AM // 00:20

<3 for JR, great read. I suppose, my only question in here, and it may seem intuitively obvious, is this:

I have problems completely with Assassins as a whole, and really don't understand at all how they could work. Ritualists I can see being overhauled in a suitable way, but Assassins seem beyond hope.

FoxBat · Jan 30, 2008, 12:27 AM // 00:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

I have problems completely with Assassins as a whole, and really don't understand at all how they could work.

Shift them towards pressure play. Lower attack skill recharges and smash the powerful instagib combos. Buff defensive (target-ally, not recall) shadowsteps so they can stay alive with crap armor if they're smart. (Change the random-teleport defensive steps to target/nearest/random ally while you're at it.)

Songbringer · Jan 30, 2008, 12:37 AM // 00:37

The sin would be good if it had a way to survive a little better. The sin bieng a great killer can add a lot of things to gvg. Turn the tides if all the sudden the other teams monk falls.

BUT the fact is over a long battle the war is superior to the sin. The sin will just be collecting dp along the roadside if it doesn't hide in the backline(way back like behind the monks back) and then come up to do his/her chain and then run away again. AND thats saying he is good enough to kill something and smart enough to know when to give up on an enemy and try another or run away. We all know that a mellee class can't be hiding in the backline. He needs to be up pressuring all(90%) of the time. There isn't enough time to run away wait for an opening then jump in.

It comes down to the sin needing a way to have his full chain wich is usually bout 4-5 attack skills. A shadowstep and a way to either get away fast or survive untill he can use his chain again. ALL bieng into 1-3 attributes or his attribs will be spread so thin he wil suck anyway.

My suggestion for the sin is. More defense and Less offense. Even if you dumbed down there damage they will still have the kick they need to kill something AND will be able to survive for more then 1 chain and then wait for the res

erk · Jan 30, 2008, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

I'm fairly sure if you read my post properly that you wont see anything to the contrary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Currently they are in the same state. People take them purely for Ancestors Rage and Splinter to farm NPCs. Again, they are not much more than a VoD play with skills to make them slightly more than mediocre along the way.

Yeah right sure, that's all they do!

When I watch Assassins on obs, half the time they are just posturing wandering around not hitting a thing. That's where Warriors and Dervishes have it all over the Sin, they keep chopping and changing targets dealing useful dps with their auto attacks. I am sure it's a function of play style because there is nothing stopping a Sin having a useful auto attack as well even though it is a lower dps, which may benefit from conjure etc.

Sinful Doom · Jan 30, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by dies like fish

Paragons are much different than Ritualists and Assassins. They do not rely on broken game mechanics to be good.

Energy gain from leadership isnt broken? Interesting...

Kyp Jade · Jan 30, 2008, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Energy Gain from soul reaping wasnt/isnt broken? Interesting...

pah01 · Jan 30, 2008, 01:00 AM // 01:00

As long as assasins have the ability to teleport in GVG we will have this problem. I have said that assasins and ritualists are bad for the game on so many occasions it isnt even funny. The thing is the paragon and the rit arent very interesting either.

Avatar of gayhood and ima chant some unremovable shi* and have an unremovable IAS with no drawback is complete bull.

The deft tweaks that the nightfall classes require would leve them in the dust too

Joe

Iotan · Jan 30, 2008, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by erk

Yeah right sure, that's all they do!

When I watch Assassins on obs, half the time they are just posturing wandering around not hitting a thing. That's where Warriors and Dervishes have it all over the Sin, they keep chopping and changing targets dealing useful dps with their auto attacks. I am sure it's a function of play style because there is nothing stopping a Sin having a useful auto attack as well even though it is a lower dps, which may benefit from conjure etc.

Again your inexperience becomes blindingly obvious. Rits are ONLY in the game to provide Ancestors/Splinter. The extras like Weapon of Remedy and the party healing ashes are just that-extras.

Assassins wand because they instasplode at the stand when facing 2 warriors if they don't. If they jump on the other team's monks they get linebacked, and without a shield their armor just doesn't cut it. In 8v8 a pure sin spike won't go through because there's another healer to save the target long enough to get the backup healing. Then the Assassin sits around for 20 seconds trying not to die as Shadow Prison recharges.

Oddly enough it seems like the A/D that has cropped up since the Pious buff seems the most balanced of any of the sins I've seen. It uses some block stances or enchants or something to stay alive and gets fairly high levels of crits for some pretty big damage. It loses out on attack speed and run speed (Pious Haste would remove necessary enchants) so there's a benefit/drawback to the class.

To the people complaining about Soul Reaping and Leadership; those attributes are stupid but in their current form they don't break the game. If necros get buffed beyond the garbage Bloodspike that never will die then SR will need to be looked at but I'm fine not seeing necros around.

I loved the Paragon as an offensive character (Cruel Spear etc.) who could provide a small amount of defense as well, but the current Partygon is just a big bag of fail.

DutchSmurf · Jan 30, 2008, 01:56 AM // 01:56

As much as I agree with the things JR said, I noticed one major thing was missing in his post. I was reading his comments on assassins and ritualists and just when I thought now we get to the point, his post was done. I was hoping for some (smart) suggestions about how to change them to make them useful, but sadly those suggestions never came.
Did some thinking myself then and soon realized that there isn't much else you can do with an assassin if you take away their killing combos. Their armor makes them less suitable for 8vs8 play then warriors. And without killing combos, the spiking of a warrior wins at that point too. Leaving their shadowstepping, which is another unwanted effect we want to get rid of. And shadowstepping without combo to follow it up is kinda useless too.
Their main advantage (not needing to build adrenaline) doesn't have any use if your attacks won't be able to do enough damage to have an effect. And that main advantage also means its main use is splitting. You can buff their defensive skills, but why would you want to use those skills when you can just role a more effective character that comes with standard high armor?

Kaon · Jan 30, 2008, 02:00 AM // 02:00

The problems with the game now are so incredibly deep, and are only getting worse.

Yes it can be fixed by a skillbalance, yet it would have to tweak so many things so correctly, this while izzy seems to have the greatest problems with tweaking only 1 thing correctly (and while he's at it still breaks 2 things for it in return).

Ritualists, Assassins, Paragons, Dervishes, their entire concept is flawed and useless.

Riotgear · Jan 30, 2008, 02:30 AM // 02:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

The Paragon and Dervish are classes that could mostly be saved by some deft tweaks to the class.

The concept Dervishes were built around is cryptic and non-intuitive enchantment cycling, with most of the fuel enchantments being utter trash. The remainder of the class is based on retardedly huge spike damage and Avatar of [email protected]

Paragons are based on a midliner with tank-level armor, frontline-level damage (if not versatility), and a bunch of unremovable party buffs that are largely noninterruptable. It's a class based on a bunch of crap you can't deal with in any practical way but splitting away from it. And of course, the only major problem with them is the fact that most of their abilities are overspecialized crap (i.e. chants that activate on shout/chant, which has no use outside of gimmick teams with loads of Paras/Warriors)

Paragons are really more of a disaster of game design than modern Ritualists are. Ritualists at least have a potential midliner role from the various offensive and defensive buffs provided by weapon spells.

Assassins are a gank class. I shouldn't have to explain again how bad gank classes are for fun factor, because the entire purpose of a gank class is tactical immunity: The ability to create one-sided fights in their favor at will, and the ability to escape from fights not in their favor at will.

Mr Emu · Jan 30, 2008, 04:34 AM // 04:34

So in order to fix sins, what I’m hearing seems to be a combination of the following:
-Nerf spike damage
-Buff pressure/autoattack dps/utility
-Increase survivability so that the pressure can take effect

Nerfing the spike dmg is easy; nerf skills x, y, and z and the spikes are no longer viable. Buffing the pressure requires more forethought and precision. Things like fox's promise scythe, moebius, and shattering assault are all in the pressure>spike category, but don't do much in the way of promoting player skill. 12323434 is just as mind-numbing as instagib, just differently styled. Something has to be done to fix that aspect. Increasing recharges on L-O-D chains like shattering while upping autoattack dps might do the trick. There are primarily three methods of increasing said dps:

-Increase dagger damage. This is a plausible solution that moves sins closer to the realm of caster-war that they seemed designed to be originally.

-Increase attack speed. This is a less plausible situation that seems likely to be abused in conjunction with damage buffs like SaH and Conjures, or adrenaline skills (although fear me was suitably destroyed).

-Increase double strike rate. This also seems likely to be abused in the same manner as an inherent IAS.

Methods one and two are both reliant on killing assassin spike capacity in order to avoid worsening the situation. As I am not currently involved in high level GvG, I am not qualified to present an opinion to what extent or which of these solutions would be most effective, they are merely personal opinion. In regards to increasing utility, many posts have been made on this topic already. Assassins already have the basis for utility, however, it currently is not worth the bar space. Off the top of my head, Siphon speed is an excellent snare that probably doesn’t need any changes and ddagger could use a short disable (5-10 seconds).

The final problem we run into is survivability. Currently, assassins have no viable self-healing for splits (like rangers), but are not resilient enough to endure an 8v8/7v7 stand battle without considerable investment (like warriors, and to a lesser extent, dervishes). There are very few possible solutions, and even fewer that are remotely feasible. One that may be realistic if a class overhaul is implemented is a simple change to 80 armor. This would drastically increase the feasibility of running frontline sins. The other change, buffs to self healing, would push the class further in the gank-only direction. Other than that, I don’t have any ideas for survivability increase. With these changes it would be possible to buff certain shadow steps and nerf others to the point where they gave assassins great maneuverability but did not eliminate positioning or invite spike-oriented play. Something like a 10e .25c 10r basic target enemy shadow step, possibly half range, would promote more advanced tactical awareness on both teams.

Sorry for the text wall. Don’t flame if I’m wrong. Constructive feedback is appreciated. TY